Image Credit: Everett CollectionChristopher Nolan’s third Batman movie has a title: The Dark Knight Rises. But who will be the villain? The speculation has already begun. Geoff Boucher of The Los Angeles Times — who reports that The Riddler and Mr. Freeze are both out of the running — is promoting the theory that Two-Face (played by Aaron Eckhart in The Dark Knight) will return to terrorize Batman and all of Gotham City with his hideous visage. Amid reports that Nolan has been auditioning actresses for an unspecified role, there’s been much speculation that Catwoman or Poison Ivy will figure into the mix, not only as foil but also as love interest to the now single Bruce Wayne. (Tweeted Paul Dini, the screenwriter and comic book scribe: “The Dark Knight Rises. If the villain does turn out to be Catwoman, I can hear the snickering already.”)
Of course, I have my own potential enemies list for what’s likely to be the final Nolan/Christian Bale Batman movie. (Not that I want it to be their last team-up. I’m just guessing they’re aspiring to — or will be content with — a thematically-tidy trilogy.) My choices flow out of my musings on The Dark Knight’s memorably unsettling cliffhanger … an ending that set up the Batman himself as the villain of his next cinematic adventure.
Let’s recap. If you recall, The Joker’s rampage of chaos and murder had scarred both the face and soul of Gotham City’s crusading district attorney, Harvey Dent (Eckhart). No longer capable of believing in his idealism, Dent pursued bloody vengeance against lawmen and lawbreakers alike, ceding his moral choices to a mere flip of a coin. Batman — whose quest to save Gotham City from crime and corruption is as much a culture war as it is a back-alley battle with thugs — couldn’t allow the public to lose faith in the values embodied by the inspiring “White Knight” DA. So he made a rather radical sacrifice: He took the blame for all the murders that Harvey Dent committed during his cynical day as Two-Face so that Gotham could continue believing in the good man he once was. Over the objections of his policeman ally, Jim Gordon, Batman redefined his symbolic meaning: Goodbye bat ears, hello scapegoat horns. “I’m whatever Gotham needs me to be,” Batman growled before riding into the night, a lawless villain on the run — a “dark knight.” Batman’s voiceover: You’ll hunt me. You’ll condemn me. Set the dogs on me. Because that’s what needs to happen. Because sometimes the truth isn’t good enough. Sometimes people deserve to have their faith rewarded.
Heavy. So heavy that I’m going to spend the next two paragraphs being really pretentious and ponderous about it. (Feel free to skip ahead to fun villain-predicting stuff). The subversive twist of The Dark Knight was reminiscent of Alan Moore’s Watchmen, another story in which allegedly heroic conspirators agree to propagate a deception that benefits the cause of making the world a better place. Was Batman was saying that the ideals that “White Knight” Harvey Dent stood for were “real” and “true,” even if the man himself failed to successfully live out those values? Or was he saying we need to believe in those values at all costs — even if they aren’t “real” and “true” even in theory? Debate. Just as provocative was Batman’s relationship to the whole concept of “meaning.” For Bruce Wayne, Batman is an elastic identity that can be reshaped to fit the needs of his culture. (Wayne manages his “Dark Knight” intellectual property the same way movie directors manage superhero icons.) But is that to say that “Batman” is inherently meaningless? Are there limits to his elasticity? And what role do the people of Gotham play in this dialectic? Put another way: What happens when Batman wants — needs — to make another morph, maybe back to something “Good,” but the public refuses to accept that or believe it?
The Dark Knight Rises — whose title has me humming both Bruce Springsteen’s “The Rising” and Muse’s “Uprising” — promises to be a tale that finishes off the loose thematic exploration of post-9/11 attitudes about justice, catastrophe, idealism and cynicism that began in Batman Begins, blended with one of the oldest Batman themes: identity crisis. Nolan’s Batman movies present us with a man trying to express all of himself through two fabricated, restricting identities: the vigilante Batman and the playboy Bruce Wayne. But in the wake of The Dark Knight, I have to imagine that Bruce’s “true self” will struggle to find fulfillment in either persona. This presumes that Bruce Wayne actually has a “true self.” Does he? Has that person become lost in the labor of toggling between “Batman” and “Bruce Wayne”? Forget about what Gotham City needs him to be — who does the “real” Bruce Wayne want to be? What does he need to be? I’m betting The Dark Knight Rises will be about these questions — and that the triumphant ascendancy implied by the title belongs neither to the rubbery superhero or the phony playboy but the essential soul that lives in both of them.
Yes, I think wayyy to much about superhero pop. So let’s get to the fun part: Who will Batman fight in The Dark Knight Rises? Let’s begin by assuming that Scarecrow — the reedy fiend with the burlap sack mask with the delusion-inducing “fear gas” gun — will be in the mix. He was one of the main villains in Batman Begins, he had a cameo in The Dark Knight, and the actor who plays him, Cillian Murphy, is a Nolan fave. (He was also in Inception.) I have to think Scarecrow’s going to pull the franchise hat trick. As for who might be joining him:
CATWOMAN
Sexy, super agile, death-defying burglar. Next to The Riddler (who’s out of the picture) and The Penguin (we’ll address him in a second), Catwoman is the most iconic figure in Batman’s rogue’s gallery. She’s a great choice for various reasons, including these two: 1. She’s not a dude, so she’d represent a striking, even welcome change of pace from the boy-baddie parade; and 2. She would seem to meet the unspoken criteria for villainy in Nolan’s Batverse: No far-fetched super powers … unless you count empathy with cats as a power, or you buy the Tim Burton version that seemed to mystically imbue Michelle Pfeiffer’s slinky-crazy-cool Selina Kyle with a literal set of nine lives. Catwoman doesn’t need to be Batman’s love interest — though I do think he’ll definitely get one in the movie. If Batman 3 is all about Bruce Wayne/Batman deciding questions like “Who am I?’ and “What kind of man do I want to be?” then a strong romantic foil is needed, as its usually the woman who is the official judge — and the reward — of these kind of manly heroic journeys.
ARGUMENT AGAINST CATWOMAN: The Joker — a terrifying, wantonly evil chaos bringer — set the bar way high for intensity and drama when it comes to Batman villains, and I don’t think Catwoman can bring that kind of heat and pain. Her criminal concerns lack the philosophical heft than those of the rogues Nolan has given us so far. She can funk around with Bruce’s heart, for sure. Can she make a spiritual mess of Gotham City? Not without a major repositioning of her character — which I wouldn’t mind seeing. Face it: Catwoman may be purrrrrfectly easy on the eyes, but she’s a little fluffy for the brain.
CLAYFACE
A shape-shifting master of disguise whose base form happens to be a monstrous mound of sentient brown clay. (Though not always — there have been many different iterations of Clayface over the years.) If The Dark Knight Rises is all about identity crisis, and if we agree that Batman needs a traditional, criminal villain, Clayface tops my list of choices. And I can see any number of ways this crumbly chameleon could wreak havoc on Gotham on a Joker-esque scale — especially if he’s impersonating public officials or even Bruce Wayne himself. If Nolan goes this route, expect some modifications that downplay his apparent supernatural/sci-fi aspect; I suspect his baseline form will look less like a pile of mud and more like … Tom Hardy? The Inception actor has reportedly already been cast in the movie, role TBD. After all, it was Hardy who played the shape-shifting member of Leonardo DiCaprio’s team of dream thieves in Nolan’s summertime smash.
ARGUMENT AGAINST CLAYFACE: Honestly, I can’t think of one — unless he’s deemed not iconic enough. Nah.
TALIA AL GHUL/LEAGUE OF SHADOWS
In Batman Begins, Liam Neeson played a criminal-terrorist named Henri Ducard, aka Ra’s al Ghul, the leader of a legendary organization of assassins whose function is to lay waste to great cultures that had gone to seed with corruption or decadence. They tried to recruit Bruce Wayne, but he disagreed with their policy on killing; Batman doesn’t murder anyone, even criminals. (Joker hammered Batman on this point in The Dark Knight, which makes me wonder if it will remain a central point in The Dark Knight Rises, too.) Neeson’s character died in the first film, in a climactic moment as provocative as the moment that ended The Dark Knight, with Batman telling Ra’s: “I won’t kill you, but I don’t have to save you.” (That’s one way to get around the no-killing, I guess. Shiver.) But I have to think the League of Shadows lives on, possibly with a new “Ra’s al Ghul” at its head. (Think: “Ra’s al Ghul” is just a Batman-esque persona adopted by the group’s leader.) There’s also this idea. In the comics, the true Ra’s had a daughter named Talia. At one point, Batman even became romantically involved with her. THEORY! In Batman 3, Talia will blow into town as the new leader of the League of Shadows to finish her father’s work — i.e., destroying Gotham — and getting vengeance against Batman for killing her dad, making her an ironic counterpoint to Batman’s own V for Vendetta vigilante activity. Along the way: A smooch or two. Love interest solved!
ARGUMENT AGAINST TALIA: Zero name brand recognition. Playing the al Ghul/League of Shadows card would give Nolan the chance to bring his trilogy full circle — but perhaps in a way that’s too on-the-nose.
NIGHTWING
Technically, Nightwing isn’t a villain, though he has decades of history sparring with Batman during his protracted comic book childhood. See, Nightwing is actually Batman’s kid-sidekick Robin, all grown up. In the comics, he took on a new ID after becoming an adult and breaking from Batman to become his own man/do-gooder. Nolan’s Batman world has no place for a teenage sidekick. However, Gotham City could use a new superhero, now that Batman has tarnished himself as its chief villain. Now, in the last movie, Nolan introduced this idea that Batman’s activities were inspiring a dangerous phenomenon of copycat Batmans trying to fight crime. Perhaps one of these impressionable fools will rise above the rest, think himself worthy of filling the city’s vigilante void, plus make it his job to bring Batman to justice. If that happens, said wannabe caped crusader will go by the handle Nightwing. Doing would allow Nolan to bring this key element of the Batman mythology into his cinematic Bat-world in a fresh, credible way. (FYI, I’ve only recently returned to reading Batman comics, and it appears that for the past year or so, Batman has been presumed dead, and Dick Grayson — the original Robin turned Nightwing — has been filling in for the caped crusader and giving Gotham the hero it needs. Which feeds this theory nicely.)
ARGUMENT AGAINST NIGHTWING: A perfectly reasonable idea, in my humble opinion — but one that probably can’t sustain the kind of movie we all really want to see, i.e., Batman in a high stakes physical and philosophical brawl with an outrageously scary bad guy. A subplot, then?
THE PENGUIN
The Penguin — ugliness incarnate, ridiculously round (obese?) with freakish physical features — can be hideously rendered, making him a compelling visual for Nolan à la Two-Face. I can also see him repositioned as an wickedly weird agent of terror à la The Joker. Batman rogues are usually made via tragedy — the cracked mirror counterpoint to Bruce’s tragedy-forged vigilante heroism. But The Penguin — whose hideous physiology is genetic in nature — offers a point of difference that allows for a different angle on the nature vs. nurture question of evil.
ARGUMENT AGAINST THE PENGUIN: A lot of Batman fans think the character is rather ridiculous — and I am one of them. The character is going to need an edgy makeover to have any credibility or cool with moviegoers.
SUPERMAN
My long shot theory! Basically, take the Nightwing argument (Gotham City needs a hero, one that will bring an end to the city’s Dark Knight problem) and swap in the Man of Steel. Now, Superman would fly in the face of Nolan’s apparent prohibition against ostentatious super-powers. Still, let me try to talk you into at least wondering if a Batman vs. Superman conceit might be in the works — beginning with the fact that prior to Nolan’s first Batman movie, Warner Bros. was developing a movie entitled Batman Vs. Superman. There is also the fact that Nolan is producing the studio’s new Superman movie, written by David S. Goyer (a producer and scribe on the Batman movies) and directed by Zack Snyder. Might Nolan use his third Batman movie to introduce the world to a new era Superman? I could see a story loosely based on the climactic chapter of Frank Miller’s classic 1980s comic book mini-series, The Dark Knight Returns. In that bleak, politically-charged apocalyptic yarn, Gotham is in a state of tumult due to Batman’s return after a long absence, and the president (a mean Ronald Reagan caricature) asks a (self-loathing) Superman to go rein him in. I won’t spoil the twist ending, but let’s just say that if Nolan went this route, the title The Dark Knight Rises becomes really ironic.
ARGUMENT AGAINST SUPERMAN: A bad idea for any number of reasons, including the fact that the presence of Superman would effectively reduce The Dark Knight Rises to being a marketing vehicle to launch another franchise, upstaging and undermining the significance of what could be Nolan/Bale’s Batman swan song. But c’mon. Who doesn’t want to see this “World’s Finest” in a movie together?
The bottom line: I’m already ready for The Dark Knight Rises. To be honest, I wasn’t exactly burning for a new Batman movie when Batman Begins came out in 2005, and I think others felt the same way. But both of Nolan’s Batman epics now rank among my favorite superhero movies ever; can’t wait to see the third. Now it’s your turn. Who do you want to see Batman battling in his next film? There are plenty of other rogues to choose from. Killer Croc? Deadshot? (One of my personal faves, actually.) Hugo Strange? Poison Ivy? Bane? (Meh.) The Mad Hatter? Solomon Grundy? Hush? The floor is yours.
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Hush! with a Catwoman subplot. he goes with the identity storyline perfectly: he’s a great bridge between Bruce Wayne and Batman, and he’s sort of the dark mirror to Batman. the only downside is lack of name recognition, but Nolan could do him perfectly. Also, Tom Hardy could play him perfectly.
Hush is an interesting choice, if somewhat recent in vintage.
If they want to make it really dark…they’d go with Hugo Strange and Zsasz. If done right, the Ventriloquist can also be fairly creepy.
If you’re going for over the top effects, then Killer Croc…or even more whacked out, they could do Man-Bat.
Personally, I hope they keep it less fantastical.
the villain will be Harley Quinn who, in the comics, was one of the Joker’s Psychiatrist’s at the asylum until she fell in love wit him. I would imagine she wouldn’t be too pleased of his capture. though, they may choose to leave the whole Joker theme behind after heath’s untimely passing
I agree with Anthony — I’d love to see Harley Quinn in this one, even if she’s not the main villain. Ellen Page would do a great job with it.
Zsasz did appear in a bit part in Batman Begins. I thought that coverting the riddler into that type of character would be really neat. Any way nolan cuts it he will need to revamp aspects of the villian or villians
Hush makes the most sense. Ras and Scarecrow weren’t A+ villains before Batman Begins, they were squarely in that 3rd tier with the likes of Clayface, Croc, Poison Ivy, etc. The Joker has always been in a class by himself, then Penguin, Riddler, Catwoman, Two-Face, and Freeze. So Hush could be the answer.
Why is there no talk of Bane, or the fact that Harvey Dent is dead but not necessarily Two-Face? (Nolan did say after making Begins that he will not kill any character off that’s still alive in comic books.)
If the Dark Knight is to “rise” and be acknowledged as Gotham’s savior, then Batman has to be seen publicly fighting to save Gotham City from imminent catastrophe brought about by a resourceful villain. Now which villain has the resources and cunning to pull off this catastrophe? This scenario might pave the way for the return of the League of Shadows under a new leader with the same nom de guerre of Ra’s al Ghul. Or it could be Black Mask who is the head of a vast criminal organization with resources to instigate this said catastrophe. Since this is the last Batman movie by Director Nolan, it has to be epic in scope and scale and should encompass all of Nolan’s ideas put forth in the previous two Batman films.
LIAM NEESON! The return of Ra’s Al Ghul. And his daughter, Talia, as Wayne’s love interest. Neither would know of each other’s identities until her father reappears and she has to choose sides. Add in Penguin as a disfigured scientist (minus bird fetish) with a League-of-Shadows-size plan. NO Catwoman, Ivy, Clayface, Riddler! Possibly a third act that includes the death of an innocent and an orphaned tween boy/girl (who sees Batman as someone to model themselves after).
Hugo Strange? Dr. Strange. No. Mr. Zsasz? Serial killer, Dexter Morgan. Boring. PASS! Ventriloquist? Seriously, is this a Joel Schumacher film? PASS!
The only problem with Hush is that, as written in the comic books, he originally relied very heavily on the rest of the rogues gallery. Hush himself was just a pawn in a bigger game run by Riddler which included Ivy, Joker, Harley Quinn, Clayface, Two Face, Killer Croc, Jason Todd, Superman, and possibly Catwoman. They could absolutely use the character in a different way, but the ties to Bruce would be difficult to replicate without the complexity of Hush’s comic book introduction.
Definitely hush
I agree that Tom Hardy should definitely be somehow involved as some character.
Jeff Jenson, I love your thought-provoking, and oft philosophical and/or theological musings vis-à-vis pop culture. I miss reading your “Lost” summaries/analyses. I just plain miss “Lost” altogether. And I don’t care what anyone else says, I think it ended beautifully.
Anyway, Batman III (or VII, really) is going to be great!
Tom Hardy is already involved as some character. He’s been cast.
I agree Michael, nicely said! I really enjoyed this article and the in-depth study of possibilities and philosophy. (I even liked the pretentious pondering!
Thanks Jeff and I am ready for The Dark Knight Rising too!
mayeb I am too old, but I read Batman, watched all the Batman cartoons from the 90′s through today….and have no clue who Hush is.
To me, and I think a lot of people, it would be someone that no one knew.
He’s from a story arc found only in the comicbook series in 2002/2003
Go and by Hush
I meant “buy”. Now that i think about it, The 90′s cartoon missed a big oportunity letting Hush out of their arcs.
Hush wasn’t created until after the 90′s cartoon had ended.
Im tempted to buy Hush because everytime I read these boards, people keep going on about him.
***spoiler***
Hush is a masked figure (mummylike medical bandages) that is eventually revealed to be the childhood friend of Bruce. If memory serves, and its been a while since Ive read it, he is revealed to be a psychopath; one parent died but Bruces father was able to save the other. Bruce though that hush blamed him for the parent he lost, but it turns out he had tried to murder both parents, and hated Thomas and by extension Bruce for thwarting that.
That’s just what you learn in the final reveal. Hush has no powers, but is brilliant, psychopathic, and manipulates others. Oh, and he uses guns. Great foil.
Also, id love to see bane. In the graphic novels, he’s a brilliant vicious drug addicted crimelord who breaks batmans back and is his greatest physical threat.
And then batman & robin turned him into a hulking drooling henchman. Sigh.
I agree with Catwoman for one part of the story and another villain to fufill the carnage candy displayed by the Joker in the previous film
Rachel Weisz as Catwoman!
Rachel Wiesz would be a great Catwoman wouldn’t she?!
I like Christina Ricci for Catwoman. Unconventional choice, but I think she could pull it off.
when they said catwoman first person that came to mind was Christina Ricci…wierd right
Kate Beckinsale!
na emma stone as catwoman
I think Bane (Tom Hardy) is the only one that can work in Nolan’s (boring, IMO) powerless world, with Catwoman as a secondary villain/anti-hero. He’s got the smarts to deduce who Batman is and the strength to take him on hand-to-hand. I imagine Bane being brought in to find Batman and going way off the rails.
However, my biggest problem is with Batman taking the fall for Dent’s crimes–if the city welcomes Batman back as a hero, then that whole plot is ruined for me, because that tells me Gotham would’ve accepted Dent back too (he did only kill villains, after all). So what’s the point? Then again, TDK never convinced me that Dent was the be-all, end-all for goodness in Gotham anyway.
I like th Bane idea only if they introduce Azreal. That would be a good plot…Batman’s back is broken and Azreal becomes a corrupt Batman.
Couldn’t Bane also serve as the “good Batman”? Brought in to take Batman and the rest of the mob down, but goes off the rails, much like Jean Paul Valley did.
Sorry, meant “corrupt Batman,” not “good.”
I do like this line of reasoning. They’d be playing Bane a bit closer to his current incarnation in the Secret Six, which is actually pretty good.
Basically, the Mayor brings in a bounty hunter to take out the Bat, and as part of his “job” he does some of what he did in his initial appearance, with letting out some criminals. That would give them a chance to have another Scarecrow cameo, maybe another one with Zzazz, etc. Eventually Bane tries to go in and take out Batman himself. If you mix in Catwoman it works well, as she is a “good” vilain, in that in most incarnations she is only a thief and doesn’t kill. If Bane goes after Catwoman with excessive force, it would be showing that difference, where the “villain” is more moral than the “hero”.
They may even have Batman be willing to let Bane take over for a while (either post beat down, or when Bane cleans up the street) and can take some aspects from Kingdom Come with the Superman/Magog relationship (If this the hero the people want, let them have it).
HEAVY? That choice between keeping Dent’s “real & true” image alive versus just keeping the “real & true” facade as the norm is neither here nor there. It’s all about the choice that’s made and the consequences that follow. It’s about “choosing”, not about “choices”. Also, Batman is not an elastic icon bent to suit Wayne’s mood. Bruce has defined this persona: doesn’t kill, avoids the police, keeps citizens from harm, creates a hostile environment for criminals. Wayne doesn’t deviate from those tactics/principles.
Hush? Unknown and uninteresting. Pass! Next?
I personally think either catwoman or Talia Al Ghul would be perfect! But I still feel there should be at least one male villian, preferably Black Mask.
Catwoman!! Hands down!
Catwoman for the win!
I wouldn’t want a Catwoman subplot. It’s too cliche. Talia, on the other hand, would be a nice counterpoint. He lost Rachel, the ingenue, and finds Talia, the antiheroine. Talia’s viewed as innocent by society but has done criminal things out of loyalty to her father; Batman’s innocent but is viewed as a criminal by society out of loyalty to Harvey Dent.
As for the villian, I could see a Black Mask or Kingpin. I’d really want to see Deathstroke: someone who can go mano-a-mano with Batman.
Talia is a walking cliche, out to avenge dear old daddy. Lame!
Catwoman FTW!!! She’s the better and more popular character.
@Flip.
I don’t think Talia has to be out to avenge her Dad. In the comics she always admired Bruce because her father suggested that he was the only one good enough for her. I think she could be a temptation for a different path for Batman. I reckon she will try and re recruit Bruce to The League Of Shadows.
There’s a difference between cliche and iconic. Catwoman is iconic. Burton did the Bruce/Selena lovestory a lot of justice, actually- two halfs of the same coin.
Of course I’d love to see harley quinn pop up, too.
Ugh, no Talia pls. If they made her true to the comics, then her dialogue would be nothing but “Beloved, blah, blah, blah, beloved,….”. As a character, she’s a total snooze. Cant dwcide whether she wants to be whiny daughter or clingy girlfriend And how can people think she has heft when she’s only a satellite of her father. Without him, she’s nothing.
Sorry, Q- Kingpin isn’t from Batman.
not to split hairs, but Kingpin is in the Marvel universe.
I’m thinking Rebecca Hall as Talia. Bring the story full circle. Perhaps she could manipulate Wayne as a groupie (whilst knowing his true identity).
Also…I think they should introduce dick grayson in this one. maybe not have him become robin yet, but at least have bruce taking him in
Not really a comic fan (although reading about Clayface and Hush in these different Batman articles makes me want to read the comics) but I really don’t want to see a love interest. As a grown woman I’m perfectly capable of going to see a movie without needing a romantic aspect.
thank you! i keep asking, why does there have to be a love interest at all?
What about Zsas or even a battle with Red Hood, a good red hood that is. Zsas would give us an opportunity to see how Batman would battle a “normal” serial killer.
Red Hood, the Robin version, would give us competition for Batman to solve the crime and also a good foil to go against.
Here here! From another grown woman who really doesn’t need a love interest forced into every story! I’m just glad the two Rachels didn’t have a ton of screentime in the movies. I didn’t like who they cast either time, but the awesomeness of the movies made up for it.
As long as these movies don’t go the way of “Spider-man”, meaning the first two were great and the third was awful, I will be happy with a good quality trilogy. I don’t know the comic books very well, but this Clayface character sounds interesting.
Clayface would fly in the face of Nolan’s “no powers” ideas…unless they made him a Master of Disguise type as opposed to an actual shapeshifter.
I believe that two face shouldn’t be in the third one because he was killed in the dark knight now catwoman is a good nemisis and I believe the joker and poison ivy should cast this film without a doubt good casting line up don’t ya think?
I believe Nolan said that Harvey Dent was dead at the end of The Dark Knight. I doubt Two-Face will return. Because Nolan’s not keen on special visual effects involving the characters’ appearances, Clayface is out, too.
I know I am the only one but I hate catwoman
You’re not the only one. I hate her too.
ditto
In the comics, Ra’s Al Ghul reincarnated through use of the Lazarus Pit, so he’s not out of the question.
My problem is that Batman is the least interesting character in the films (except for Rachel). I don’t care about his identity crisis. Bring on the interesting villains.
“In the comics, Ra’s Al Ghul reincarnated through use of the Lazarus Pit, so he’s not out of the question.” – This is flying in the face of what Nolan has built this superhero franchise to be, aka as realistic as the parameters will allow. He would never. Duh.
Mr. Jensen, you write a sharp Batman article. What snappy and articulate analysis of TDK and its continuing themes that can clue us into the villain(s) of TDKR. I enjoyed this a lot. My theories:
Catwoman or Talia? I think you can flip a Dent coin between the two of them (though Selina Kyle is much more fun of a character), but they each have respective weight for a movie: Talia hasn’t been done before, but Selina Kyle hasn’t been done exactly right (remember when we thought Ledger would bomb compared to Nicholson).
Clayface? I agree that his second-string status in Bat-mythology bogs him down from the list of candidates.
Who would I like to see? Well, I was very relieved to read Nolan deny the Riddler’s involvement as the main villain. the Penguin is a very interesting criminal, but not heavy enough to provide major conflict. I see him as a side player, a corrupt club owner that plays conflicts and heroic good vs. evil to his own end (think Gene Hackman’s Lex Luthor in Superman 2). Bane would have been a good choice had Batman not gone vigilante at the end of TDK — my friend pointed out that Bane is always against the establishment, so for him to take on Batman, Batman must be the establishment. My personal choice is Hush.
Nolan said long ago that “Two-Face’ died in “The Dark Night.”
Actually he said that “Harvey Dent” died in the Dark Knight. Maybe he meant that in the way Obi-Wan told Luke that Darth Vader killed his father.
Agree with this thread. I’d really like to see greater focus on the detective nature of Batman – only touched on in the first two. Would be great to see a plot where we dont really know who the villain is – signs pointing to Two Face/Harvey not really being dead – which also pulls in the Hush aspect of that storyline, which I agree with others on this site was a fantastic arc. Give us a who-dunit, tying in the anarchy that has hit the mob with the killing off of the leaders in TDK, coupled with Gordon now forced to go after Batman as he tries to solve the mystery that threatens to unravel the salvation he created for Harvey Dent in the last movie, and there’s the makings for a great story. Agree also with others – no need for the subplot love interests – takes away from the loss of Rachel to Bruce Wayne.
Fanboys will never learn. When good looking men lose a girlfriend they tend to find a substitute to fill the void. It’s either a girl or booze. Introducing Talia as a rebound would fit a story where Ra’s Al Ghul reintroduces himself with a new plan to destroy Gotham and the Great Detective as well.
I’m personally torn on who I’d like to see as the villain. I agree that Catwoman doesn’t have the heft to carry the movie as the sole villain, although as a secondary villain (or even anti-hero) a la Two-Face to the Joker in Dark Knight, it might work. I don’t love the idea of bringing in Nightwing, since Dick Grayson is universally beloved among the rest of the DC heros (he’s the only character with good ties to all the various superteams), so I can’t see him as an antagonist, although Nolan could find a way of doing it.
Unfortunately, I think two of the better villains won’t work; Jason Todd can’t credibly work without introducing him as Robin before now, despite the overall excellence of his turn as the Red Hood, and Hush, while fantastic, won’t work out because the best part of Hush was the final act, where the Riddler deduces Batman’s identity, but can’t tell anyone since it would ruin the “greatest riddle; who is Batman?” If Riddler has been crossed out, you just lose so much of what made Hush great as a story.
I guess I’m leaning most toward Talia, with either Catwoman or Clayface playing second fiddle. Ideally, though, I think the best characters left in the rogues gallery (Two Face, Riddler, Red Hood), are either eliminated from the running, or dead. Can’t wait to see where they decide to go with it!
Nolan said he wouldnt bring in Robin, and Bale said he would quit if Robin was in it, so I doubt Nightwing would come in. It’s pretty much the same thing right?
More or less. Like Jensen said, they could bring in Nightwing (or even Dick Grayson) as a completely standalone hero who’s basically the anti-Batman, but I think you’d just lose so much of what makes Nightwing work as a character if he wasn’t originally Robin.
Nightwing nor Robin work in a Nolan movie. You guys think this is a DC comic book or one of Marvel’s latest movies. Dark Knight Rises has to get mainstream audiences to make money so it’s not going to bow to fanboy wish lists. All those ridiculous characters and costumes are out. The more organic personas will have more of a chance: believable versions of Penguin, Catwoman, whatever. The problem with old comics is that some border on jumping the shark.
Okay, hear me out Batman fans- I love Poision Ivy. Yes, her original film version was awful (sorry Uma) but I think Nolan could do wonders with a sort of eco-terrorist story line for her. She may not be strong enough to be a main villain, but I’d love for her to get some respect.
I’m ok with Ivy, as long as they don’t have her controlling plants. It doesn’t work with Nolan’s universe. She could still use deadly plants, but don’t make them in any way sentient.
Nice. I agree. What we liked about these movies is that everything seemed as possible in our world. The weapons, the suit. Ivy should not have walking plants, but use plants that are deadly to carry out her missions. it could work if done right.
I’m sure Nolan could make it work. I mean think about it-a film, told backwards, about a man with short term memory loss? A film about people who plant ideas in dreams? Silly as those sound, Nolan made them amazing.
@Tracy Bluth: FYI, both of those sound less silly than a guy in a cape saving a city from a lady who controls plants and uses them to do her bidding.
If she’s not controlling plants, then what is she left with? Various plant poison-tipped darts and sprays? IMO, that’s boring and takes away from the character. But then, I personally don’t like Nolan’s ultra-real take on the Bat-mythos.
Well…haven’t we all forgot one of the biggest bad asses of the batman comics? Bane. He might have been a ridiculous and low IQ minion to Ivy in his previous film revival. But the comic Bane was an intelligent crime boss who actually put batman out of commission for awhile by breaking his back with his bare hands. He could be a very edgy character, mysterious, and dangerous. It’s a bit of a stretch since he’s not very well known. But I think it could work if done right.
I was going to yell at Jeff for leaving me out. Glad to see a smart, powerful drug lord who broke Batman’s back over my knee wasn’t forgotten by the real fans, though.
I would be the perfect villain for the pr0n-titled new Batman movie.
Bane was a back-breaking luchador gimmick used to drive slumping comic sales in the ’90s. Pass.
Bane? Pass! Next?
From ImagineCasting.com
The final installment of Christopher Nolan’s Batman trilogy. After capturing The Joker and the death of District Attorney Harvey Dent. The masked vigilante Batman, now a hunted man, must decide between hero and vigilante, as he engages in a final battle on the streets of Gotham City, as he goes up against a disfigured ruthless criminal calling himself ”Killer Croc” and the vengeful Talia al Ghul, whilst pursued by Comissioner Jim Gordon and crooked cop Harvey Bullock, as Batman must also decide his future and if he should abandon his identity as Bruce Wayne and forever live in the shadows as ”The Dark Knight”…
umm… does this seem incredibly plausible to anyone else?
and in that case, Tom Hardy = Bullock
wow. i actually want this to be the case. badly.
ICK. I hate, hate, hate the idea of Talia. And Killer Croc? Meh.
Supposedly Charlize Theron and Vera Farmiglia have been in talks for roles in this film….if true, a prominent female role such as Talia or Catwoman could be in the offing. (Of course, others speculate that these actresses are being considered for what would be non-villainous supporting roles.)
Talia is a plausible character AND a good way to reintroduce Ra’s Al Ghul – the character who made Batman Begins interesting.
Suddenly I’m bored. This is a Joel Schumacher film. It’s Christopher frakkin’ Nolan. Creator of Prestige and Inception. Revivor of Batman. ImagineCasting has ZERO imagination.