On Wednesday, I posted a long musing on the state of cultural criticism in a comment-board world, and wondered if, now that readers’ opinions are given the same space — and sometimes weight — as those of professional writers, we are moving towards a society in which educated, informed, professional criticism is no longer welcomed or necessary.
You guys responded, and how. After the jump, some further thoughts, and a big, big compliment.
First of all, I want to make it clear that this follow-up post was in no way insisted upon by my corporate overlords, who, as a couple of you pointed out, would probably be happy if there were puppies writing this blog, so long as it continued to get hits and generate ad revenue. No, this post is all me: It’s 12:31a.m., I’ve just come back from a very good Patty Griffin (pictured) concert in Manhattan, and I felt like I wanted to get some of the things that have been rattling around in my head for two days down on cyber-paper.
First and foremost: That post, for all its crabbiness, was not designed to condescend to, belittle, or otherwise disrespect the readers of this blog. I got an email from one of the more faithful among you — it’s really not that hard to track me down — who expressed his hurt feelings, as he felt like his contributions to EW.com had always been valued in the past. He didn’t understand why, at this point, I’d suggest they were not. Here’s my response to him, which I reprint in part here, as I think it goes equally for any of you who’ve cared enough to participate in this debate:
Hey. You’re obviously not the problem, for all the reasons you listed here. The problem comes when the cacophony of voices threatens to drown out any legitimate discussion, and when the 4 millionth personal insult threatens to make me stop writing forever…. Don’t make the mistake of thinking my post was a personal attack, because then we’d all miss out on your contributions. But also try and understand my perspective, as someone who worked her ass off to get this job and now finds her ass getting chewed by Joe Q. Public at every turn with no recourse other than to "ignore it." You try getting sniped at by strangers every time you do your job, and see how long you last before you start to wonder what the point of it all is…. I also think, regardless of people’s opinion on the content of my post, it’s inspired some of the most clearheaded discussion I’ve ever seen on the PopWatch blog. So for that alone, it was worth making everyone hate me. Which, come to think of it, is something I should probably post on the blog.
And that’s what I’m doing. I do think that putting my feelings — feelings I’ve heard echoed by countless colleagues both within and outside of EW for months now — out into the universe was a worthwhile venture. (Hey, this is a blog, after all. At least I’m not telling you what kind of sandwich I had for lunch.) And I am incredibly impressed by the articulate and even-tempered responses most of you contributed in return. Of course all of us here at EW value our readers — that’s why we call you "readers," and not "consumers" or "subscribers." We know you take in everything we put out there, and you process it… and now that you’ve got a forum in which to throw it back at us, you take full advantage.
But why can’t every blog post enjoy the same intelligent discussion that you put on display this week? That’s the question I long to see answered.
A few quick things and then I’m done, once again opening the floor to you:
My mention of the historical role of the critic and my place in that tradition was, along with everything else, not intended to be snooty. It was, however, designed to emphasize my greater point: that writing, even for a populist publication like EW, is a craft, and those of us who practice it take our work just as seriously as all of you take your careers. I come nowhere near the brilliance of those writers and critics I consider to be my inspirations — Greil Marcus, Grover Lewis, Dorothy Parker, Pauline Kael, David Foster Wallace, et al — but I’m striving to get there. And my greatest professional fear is that one day I’ll achieve their level of skill, but the craft itself will have become obsolete.
As seriously as we take our craft, we EW writers do occasionally make mistakes, especially on this blog, where the writing, editing, and fact-checking processes all are greatly accelerated. Often times those mistakes are corrected by you, our PopWatchers. We appreciate that. I appreciate that. (Especially when it’s done all friendly-like.) Furthermore, as several of you pointed out, your enthusiastic participation has inspired many of our favorite features here on EW.com, such as Mandi Bierly’s PopWatch Confessionals — especially the ones that get turned into front-page galleries — or the reader feedback in Dalton Ross’ Glutton columns and the ongoing Lost investigation of Doc Jensen. None of us would trade that writer/reader relationship for the world.
But as with any sea change, that relationship does take some getting used to. I don’t think it’s just me who’s struggling to figure out how the Internet is changing media culture — how it’s blurring boundaries that used to be laser-sharp — and I doubt I’ll be the last to ponder the significance of that transition out loud. My questions in that post were sincere, and those who wondered about the double standards involved in complaining about comment boards while simultaneously asking a comment board’s opinion really have nothing to fear with regard to my motives. I get no joy out of making others feel small or unnecessary. But I also get no joy out of being made to feel small or unnecessary myself — or watching my friends and colleagues enduring that experience.
And finally, to emphasize what I think is most important in all of this: If we could find a way to make the way you guys just conducted yourselves into the industry standard… well, wouldn’t that be something? Imagine a world in which writers write, readers respond, and it’s all done in an articulate, smart, witty, courteous fashion — even by those who find themselves in disagreement. You’ve proven to me that you can pull it off, PopWatchers, so now I’ll be expecting it. If it takes me baiting you to accomplish that, then consider it done. I’m not going away any time soon, and to quote the great Jerry Cantrell, "If we change, well, I love you anyway." Can we make a deal that we’re just gonna try and sort this all out together? Awesome.
Enough out of me. Who’s got something to say?
Comments (1-30) of 105 Add your comment
I think that if people had to register (with a username, password, etc) to post on the discussion board, that would lessen the barrage of angry responses. I’m on a couple of different forums (I know, NERD ALERT!) and a lot of times on there, I choose to hold my tongue because I ‘know’ the people on there a lot better and consider them my friends. Therefore, I’m less likely to lash out irrationally (although it does still happen on occasion) because I like the people, they’re my friends, they know me and I feel less anonymous and more accountable for my words. Is this doable? I don’t really know. But I really think that it would help get rid of some of the mean/negative things that are said just to be mean and stir up trouble. If nothing else, I think it would significantly cut down on the “you should have been aborted” and similar comments (which are never, EVER cool).
Whitney– I am of the opinion that critical writing is some of the most important writing in the world. It is the opportunity pull back the curtain, pop the hood, peek behind the mask and tinker with the inner workings of our world. Whether you’re examining Britney’s latest mishaps or a certain presidential administration’s shenanigans, it’s important to stop, think and digest rather than just consume, consume, consume. Don’t let the idiots get you down, and thanks for continuing to point out that the Emperor has no clothes. Or, that he’s wearing a slammin’ leather jacket.
Whittlz, that was a great post. Cheers
Whitney, thank you for bringing up these issues in this and your previous post. I usually shy away from posting on message boards to avoid the barrage negative and hurtful comments. I echo your call for “a world in which writers write, readers respond, and it’s all done in an articulate, smart, witty, courteous fashion — even by those who find themselves in disagreement.” And I would like to especially emphasize the courteous. Hiding behind a screen name is no excuse for us to lose our manners.
I don’t know how you do it Whitney. I couldn’t take the random meanness. I’m with Marci, the first poster, about registering. It does make people a little more thoughtful. There have been a few times that people have repsonded to my comments with such stupid, heartless remarks that I’ll shut up for a while. (I know, that was their point.)
Hats off to all the bloggers at EW. You give us thoughtful, funny columns to read and enjoy.
It was interesting yesterday to see how many other sites (Salon, etc.) are either questioning the shocking lack of civility online, or shutting down their message/response boards. The F*ckwad equation was dead on.
So it’s definitely not just EW.
But I do reiterate what I posted yesterday – a shocking number of onliners don’t know how to read, write, or think clearly. And they danged sure don’t know how to write comedy.
It’s important that the EW writers understand that the audience is in many cases unable to coherently process nuance, snark, or tongue-in-cheek humor.
Many of the PopWatchers try to wrestle a careening board back into civility. I’ve done it many times by refocusing on the original post, and furry_tom does it by dropping in a wild nonsequitur.
But you could help us create a worthwhile public space by resisting the urge to turn other people’s careers into soulless laff hangers.
Snark begets snark, but many onliners are not equal to the challenge.
Whitney, I agree with you wholeheartedly that you do not deserve derision and scorn for doing your job (and doing it well). I think the readers that post those abusive comments are really just angry, immature people who are trying to act superior in order to feel better about their lack of intelligence and human decency. It’s like the old Seinfeld episode where he does a show with a heckler and then goes to a heckler’s job and yells derogatory things at him all day, lesson being: I don’t come to your job and heckle you, and you don’t come to mine. Readers correcting factual (or even punctuation) mistakes is one thing, but to wish for your abortion is sick and cruel, and why? It’s not like you’re writing Bush Administration policy or anything, you’re talking about tv shows for pete’s sake! I think your response to those that wish you harm because of your opinions on Gilmore Girls should be that they just turn off the tv and computer and get out of the house once in a while.
I actually would like to know what sandwich you had for lunch.
Good points, Marci, cranky, EP Sato, and Dio_K.
Before I get flamed for pointing out that online reading comprehension is often low – and that EW writers could help by being more responsible about their posts, check out the Complete this Caption post from earlier in the week, which invites us to throw mud at Jimmy Walker and Ann Coulter.
True, Ann has no compunctions about throwing mud, in a deeply uncareful and uncaring way. But posting the photo was full-on snark with no redeeming purpose. And what about the conservatives on the board? Are they unwelcome?
As a poster, I thought of a number of scathingly funny things to say, but I didn’t post them, because it’s just an invitation to a firestorm.
And it’s a chance to become less humane, which these days is a thing we should avoid at all costs.
I’m not suggesting people shouldn’t offer smart and funny critiques of the products of the entertainment industrial complex.
But I do challenge mean-spirited snark.
—”You try getting sniped at by strangers every time you do your job, and see how long you last before you start to wonder what the point of it all is….”—I wonder how many junior high teachers have that thought at the end of the day. Hang in there.
But Whitney, at least our Astros have turned it around.
Emperor Norton: Why was doing Beat This Caption with a photo of Ann Coulter “full-on snark with no redeeming purpose”? Beat This Caption has been done with photos of all kinds of people, many of them so-called “Hollywood liberals.” Why is is somehow meaner to do it with Ann Coulter? Ann is meaner than all the other pundits (conservative and liberal) combined.
kudos empressoedt.
i’m sorry but, my dad was a high school teacher for 32 years, and not only did he get sniped at, get ridiculed (“teachers get paid too much!” “teachers are making my retarded son a genius!” “teachers are lazy worthless people who get paid summers off!”), he even came home a couple times with a bloody lip from breaking up fights. of course they were told not to, but being _humans_ they didn’t just let some poor kid get his ass kicked while waiting for security. you dont think that he felt downtrodden, and dismayed after years and years of that? and lets be honest here, being a teacher is a wee bit more relevant to society on a whole than say, an internet critic. my point is, just because people constantly tell you suck doesn’t mean you have it any worse than someone else. life is hard, ignore it, fight back or quit. and when you think you’re job is terrible and everyone hates you. imagine spending a week with 30 angry, confused teenages staring at you all day
blah, meant to be “teachers AREN’T making my retarded son a genius”. would have run out of space anyway!
Great blog Whitney. Not only does it relate to this website, but questioning whether journalists and critics are needed/wanted anymore is a very current topic. Anyone can post anything they want online. Should I trust them? Who knows. I actually do look to critics for thier opinions. I usually consider their views as quality. And while I enjoy blogging, I’m indeed jealous of you Whitney. I’d love to be working at EW, even with all the nasty remarks. If only I were a better writer. Although, I do understand. Sometimes I give my opinion about movies and tv on my myspace and all I get in return is “that movie sucks!!” How can I respond to that? Tough job, but keep up the good work!
P.S.
I love this blog!
I have been giving some thought to this topic and here is what I’ve come up with: Am I part of the problem? I have never, ever posted a comment before today. Why? Because even though I have not posted, I do read other comments. However, I rarely get far because they tend to spiral into negativity, name calling and “you’re just stupid” comments that give me uncomfortable flash backs to my Jr. High School lunchroom. I am a diplomatic, educated woman (spelling/gramatical errors not withstanding) who thinks critics are important and everyone’s opinion has value, whether I agree with it or not. Back to my original question, since it’s easier to not get involved, am I part of the problem? I think yes. Because I don’t contribute in a rational manner I don’t help to promote an intelligent debate on whatever board I’m visiting. So, I will start contributing more. Will this help? Probably not. But I do think rational posts like the one Whitney started will in the long run.
TWOP seems to keep a level headed discussion going….but you do have to register and you can be booted off for being snarky to the other posters!
Jennifer, it does count. If the educated, diplomatic people are chased away by the blatherers, then we lose yet another public space.
I’m reading a book about Abu Ghraib called The Lucifer Effect. It’s about how social structures can help people become abusive and evil.
People love to tell themselves that it’s all about the individual’s qualities or lack thereof, but certain social structures do invite certain behaviors.
Which means that changing the structure will change the behavior. Step one – don’t allow people to get away with abuse and dehumanization (even if it’s funny, and Ann Coulter deserves it).
Step two – redirect social behaviors that are careening out of control. Don’t just let nasty things happen around you. And don’t support nasty behavior by egging it on OR by ignoring it.
Seems like a lot when you just want to read recaps of Ugly Betty or something, but it’s the culture we find ourselves in right now.
It’s important that awake people remain awake.
1) You have to remember that some people making these negative, poorly-worded comments are really young. 2) Most people who bother making comments are bored…bored at work, bored after school, whatever. And when you’re bored, you don’t think straight. You’re trying to entertain yourself. 3) Some people consider surfing the web a hobby. They should reevaluate their lives. 4) I think you’re awesome.
the scathing back and forth and disregard for civil discussion that you experience on this board has been learned from our great two-party system, where intelligent discussion and measured response has all but disappeared. having said that, i think popwatch fares a lot better with the intelligence level of its’ comments than many other boards out there, and that is attributable to the high level of content put out by folks like whitney, slezak and annie barrett. i truly enjoy reading your views on all of the arts, so try not to get discouraged and stick with it. creative ideas will always be valuable contributions to our world, even if the increased (negative) feedback might make you feel otherwise!
I think posting comments on boards is similar to driving because people can flip you off without a second thought because they are safe in their little box and do not have any consequences for their horrible actions.
When I find a post on Popwatch with great comments, I read them all and thoroughly enjoy the discussion. Unfortunately, not all posts are like that. I do not generally read the TV Watch/movie review comments because half of them call the reviewer an idiot for some tiny mistake and the other half beg for EW to hire someone else who will never criticize the show. I do not love all the TV watch reviews, so the ones I don’t enjoy, I just do not rea
Sometimes I think being an EW writer would be my dream job, but then I think of the personal attacks they receive and realize I would never be able to handle it.
Unless the boards are regulated, there will never be completely thoughtful discussion. Of course then you run the risk of turning into a TWoP – Love me or be banned.
Democracy is messy. Even the ersatz democracy of the internet message board forum.
Those who are familar with political blogs know that there are people known as “trolls” who go to sites to have arguments and steer the discussion away from something positive (i.e. if you’re on a liberal site, one person might keep writing “Liberals are to blame for all the evil of the world. You want us to be the slaves of islamofacists! blah, blah, blah)
Anyway,these trolls have a way of always suceeding in taking things over. I think because people like a good fight even more than they like an interesting exchange of ideas. Honestly, EW’s posters are among the most decent and articulate of any site I read. I actually look forward to seeing what Stephanie Travinsky has to say about things. I don’t know her. She’s not famous. But she’s become a voice on culture that I’m interested in.
To wrap up, you can’t stop people from being mean and stupid.The best you can do – ignore ‘em!
One note to Whitney – I found your post yesterday to be kind of snotty. I’m glad you said more today, because it helps me understand where you’re coming from much better. Thanks.
Yeah, I actually am a junior high school teacher, and you have got me thinking about something that happened to me the other day. I walked out of class, feeling like I taught it pretty well, got a drink of water, and saw my own name on the wall in some obscene grafitti screed. My spirit dropped, then for the thousandth time, I reminded myself that there’s a difference between the comments I get from my own students, face to face, and the comments I get from anonymous 13 year olds. But still, bad grafitti never feels good and I imagine that’s what blog comments can feel like, yeah? As for your mentors, Greil Marcus and Pauline Kael and David Foster Wallace are in my opinion some of the best American writers ever, and I can’t imagine them blogging because their work depends, as you suggest, on craft, not reaction to readers. So I applaud your attempt to do both: you craft your words, and you respond to readers. Your readers are grateful; the rest is just junior high wall screed…
Good points sdr and Nat X.
And Stef – about TVw/oP. Many people have trumpeted it as a good example of a worthwhile board where people don’t go ape. What’s the downside you mention?
Do people get shamed and chased away for putting forth unpopular opinions? ‘Cause that ain’t no good.
I’m on a political mail list started by a skeptical psychotherapist who is very liberal. The list includes a number of skeptics who argue just to do it. They love to argue. It’s like an asexual courtship ritual with them.
At first, we sensitive people were aghast, and responded feelingly. Then the skeptics would just take the opposite tack and keep going. It’s exhausting, as you can imagine. But soon, we realized what was happening, called the skeptics on it, and requested that they argue for content, and not just to do it.
It changed. You can change the direction of discourse. Not always, but you don’t just have to passively accept it, or ignore it, or become inured to it.
You can have a say in the course of the public sphere, and you can have a say in what happens around you.
That is one of the best things about democracy, which I think we used to have before we became a divisive and nearly theocratic plutarchy.
It is intelligence and wit that keeps bringing me back to EW’s boards everyday. Whitney and Dalton in particular. (I love you other guys too. I really love you.[In Sally Field 85' Oscar voice]). Writing is hard (I’m trying to make a go of it myself) and these writers make it look easy which is actually a testament to how good I feel they are. Especially when discussing something as subjective as forms of entertainment. Each person has their own individual loves, likes, passions and hates. When a critic writes a review or an opinion they do so from a place of knowledge and tact. It’s easy for someone to write “You’re crazy” or “That Sucks” which I see too much of on message boards. It also annoys me that it takes 3 seconds to write such statements when people forget the time and energy behind a Film or television program. Artists work long, hard hours to create these things. Years even. And critics take time and thought to express their opinions. You’ll never see a “It Sucked” in EW.
“how it’s blurring boundaries that used to be laser-sharp.” This is the problem. As I said before, most of EW’s contributors have informed opinions, but are not putting forth true critique. Which is fine, but when you place your work in the continuum of scholarly critique, but locate it yourself in the epheral ‘net, then you’ve blurred the lines. That’s your doing. I don’t see any acknowledgement of that. I do think that the “laser sharp” boundaries is problematic, too, as it connotates a one-way street wherein the reader is passive. Finally, it should be accepted that any writer will have both positive and negative feedback – otherwise its a closed loop. So to complain about negative feedback lessens the impact of positive feedback. Embrace them both – it can only help you achieve your stated goal. And saying the internet is the death knell of critique is to not appreciate true critique. It existed before print, it’ll exist long after the ‘net.
PS – I think its highly amusing and ironic that you have ample space to relate your point, invite comments, and then limit the comment space. I know its likely out of your hands, but its very rich.
Color me impressed by the intelligence of the responses. Writing for a living can make for long lonely days, so EW, has become my way to interact with others who love show business as surely as it is a way to procrastinate. I have been guilty to, on a particularly bad day, take out my aggression on a EW writer; forgetting that those are more than words on the screen. What raised my awareness about the need for respect was Jeff’s recent LOST TV watch in which he got very personal about his wife’s illness. I was touched by it, and have not forgotten to include her in my thoughts and prayers because in a weird way, he is part of my life. Every Thursday morning I have breakfast with Jeff, well his column. The man can write brilliantly about nothing more than a show while facing the unexpected twists of life so courageously. Without Jeff, Whitney, Slezak, Gary, Annie plus so many others. My days would be dull, yes, granted a lot of work would get done. But it wouldn’t be the same.
Hey Emperor – You are right, they definitely do not get out of control most of the time with TWoP. I have stopped posting there, however. I just noticed over the years that you have had to be extra extra careful not to offend the moderators and disagreeing opinions were dealt with rather harshly at times. I don’t mean to trash their website though, there are certainly good things about it. I just felt like I could not freely discuss my opinions without being extra careful about breaking some FAQ rule. But there is always a happy medium, which is where most people lay.